Rodney:
When it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion, everyone has a different definition and it means different things to different people. How do you define diversity, equity, and inclusion?
Christyl:
That is a great question because when I think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, I think it's also important to add belonging. So let me kind of go through each of the areas in terms of my understanding. I feel like diversity is having the opportunity to bring different thoughts, perspectives, experiences, to the table. So equity is ensuring that based on people's differences, we're able to give them a more equal setting. Right. And so equity is not necessarily a straight line because what is equitable for one person might be different for another based on your experiences, access, opportunity skills, a variety of things. So inclusion is ensuring that people feel like they have a seat at the table, and we don't just have you here with diverse perspectives, but from the organizational perspective, it's really ensuring that we are able to take advantage of that diversity because people feel like they are.
Last one, the belonging. And I think sometimes we don't necessarily focus on belonging, but it's super important because if we have people, we have the diverse thoughts, perspectives, they're at the table, but if they don't feel as if they belong, they're not going to speak up. We're not going to be able to recoup those benefits of diversity. And I think people would not stay at a firm too long, right, if you don't feel like you belong there. And if you think about it from a perspective of this whole insider versus outsider notion, we can all be at the same table, but perhaps somebody might feel like they are an insider, they have access to the information, their performing at a high level, people know who they are and perhaps the person who's not speaking up feels like a little bit of an outsider, even though they're at the table, so they're not feeling as if they belong, and so they're not able to show up in an awesome way.
Rodney:
Another phrase I keep hearing, or word I keep hearing in the DEI space today is intersectionality. What is intersectionality?
Christyl:
Intersectionality is the acknowledgement and recognition that each individual comes with a variety of different ways in which they're showing up. I always use myself as an example. I'm a woman. I am black. And so you don't want to necessarily be categorized in one or the other because there are different places where we intersect. And so it's important for us not to generalize, and it's important to allow people to have that safety to show up as their real selves and not being pigeonholed into one particular bucket or not.
Rodney:
Another thing I've heard in the past is why can't we just have a colorblind workplace where we don't think about any of this stuff and we're all humans, aren't we? We all have skin and blood and bones. What are your thoughts on that?
Christyl:
Well, I chuckle because the world is beautiful. The world is colorful. Right. So I understand the want, the thought and the desire to say, I am not taking into consideration color, but if we look at how people show up, we are different colors and they're beautiful. And so I think if we discount that fact that there are color differences, there are ways in which people of color have been treated inequitably, differently, then it discounts people's real lived experiences. It's kind of idealistic to think that these things don't impact how we react and engage with people, but they do. Right. Everyone has a mindset that is based on their own experiences and color does in fact come into play.
Rodney:
I remember hearing one leader say that if you say to me you don't see color, then you don't see me.
Christyl:
Right. You don't see me.
Rodney:
You don't see me. Yeah. Yeah. So all of that makes sense. Now, you've been involved in a number of roll-outs of belonging initiatives. What are some examples of it being done right? What are some examples of it where it could have been done better? And what are some examples where it just was done all wrong?
Christyl:
Well, I think when you're looking at an opportunity to, let's say, increase representation within your firm, a good program will start with acknowledging where are we, where are we at a baseline? You take a look at the people that you have within your firm, and you set metrics so you can track your progress going forward. And it's so important to acknowledge that different businesses might have different dynamics, and it's important to, if we're saying we're going to try to target underrepresented groups, understand who's there and who's not. I think it is important building into a program to define what your success will be and to have an ability to track that going forward. I think that is paramount.
Number two, ensuring that you're able to create and communicate the business case for why this is important. Right. So it's not necessarily that we're just focusing on kumbaya let's say, it's important to acknowledge and to define the business case. Why are we focusing on diversity and inclusion? Studies show that those organizations that have more seats at the table, that are more diverse, they actually do outperform the market in terms of problem-solving, innovation. And so being able to tie your diversity and inclusion objectives, your strategies to your business objectives is important. Another critical success factor is having senior leadership commitment and buy-in, right? So buy-in is you've encouraged me, you've created the business case. I understand, I'm buying in, but getting to that real commitment I think is important.
Rodney:
What are some misconceptions when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion programs? I remember talking to someone and they were sharing that they worked at a company that had a female CEO, and people felt like they won DEI. We have a woman as a CEO. We're done and trying to convince other leaders that no, we have a lot more to do. It's more than just who's at the top of the table. What are some other misconceptions you've seen when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion?
Christyl:
Well, I think step number one in terms of misconception is that overnight you are completed, right? It really very much is a journey. And different organizations might be at different stages of their diversity and inclusion journey. And so change doesn't take place necessarily overnight, nor does changing your representation figures. Equally important to understand is that diversity and inclusion is not only about the numbers, it is about behavior change. It's about culture change. And so that must be infused in an organization. So for instance, if we're talking about leadership development, we don't necessarily need a different leadership development program separate from a DEI program per se. We should say, as a good leader, as a type of exemplar leader, we want in our organization, DEI, a focus and an intention and a commitment on DEI should be BAU. So I think, again, it goes back to tracking, measuring success, but also understanding it is a marathon that must continue to be worked on. It's like culture. You can't have one culture initiative do it, and it's over. It needs to be continually enhanced, modified, iterated over time.
Rodney:
Starting to hear thoughts about some research being done around how do you deliver benefits. What are some of the benefits that may impact differently depending on the segments? Love to get your thoughts on that as far as workplace financial benefits that are more effective than others with certain segments.
Christyl:
When I think about workplace financial benefits, I always have to start at number one. Right. So our employees at the same rate, having access to a variety of different benefits that would impact us at different stages in our journey. It's important I think, for organizations to understand maybe I'm a person who's just graduated and I have a lot of loans. And when we think about studies showing that underrepresented employees and women on average tend to have higher loans from schools, that is an opportunity to reach out to that group. Or if you're not offering, it's a missed opportunity for organizations. Right.
So ensuring that the organization does research and is understanding the different segments within their employee base, and using that lens of some of the common insights that we do take from studies on BIPOC employees. Studies will show that women, Hispanics, blacks in terms of home ownership lag. Right. And why do they lag? One of the biggest, biggest obstacles is having that opportunity to be given access to the down payment. And so that ability for generational wealth has been missed out for some groups because of macroeconomic and socially driven, I would really say racism that leaves people out of an opportunity to have a fair rate, to have home ownership. And so if we think about what area in terms of workplace financial benefits could help certain groups, that's an area that could help the underrepresented.
Rodney:
Can you share some examples where benefits have overlooked other types of segments within the workforce? And more importantly, how can employers be sure that they are more inclusive and adopting a policy of belonging?
Christyl:
So again, thinking from the perspective of groups that perhaps have historically and maybe even today are still a little bit disadvantaged. Number one, we'll use women as an example. On average, women are not in the roles at the levels in which equity compensation is being distributed. And then number two, studies also show that even if a woman is in a similar role in terms of title, the percentages of equity compensation are less. When we think about women's experiences, sometimes women may take time off to raise a family and or care for elders, and one of the biggest drivers in terms of access to equity compensation is tenure as well. So these are some factors which impact access and opportunity. And so employers, plan administrators, right, have an ability to review their dynamics in terms of who is in fact eligible.
Rodney:
I want to roll intersectionality into this discussion about workplace financial benefits because groups and workforce segments are not monoliths. You talked about your different identities, I recognize my different identities. So how can employers start to think about a more intersectional offering, making sure that they're addressing the whole employee?
Christyl:
That's an important question, Rodney, because when an organization is designing its financial employee benefits program, it doesn't necessarily have to be siloed. So leveraging the fact that we have affinity or business resource groups within organizations that come together, they bring like-minded individuals together, gives you, I think, a segue for communication and creating awareness around what is in fact available. I think that's really powerful because I'm a woman and so I'm involved in a variety of different groups. I'm involved in our women's resource group, parents' resource group, African American resource groups.
So you look at these different affinity groups, I think that is taking advantage of the fact that I say I'm showing up in a lot of different ways, and here are areas and individuals who have similar likes and needs. Why wouldn't an organization say, wow, there's already a connection here. Let's maybe go to this group with the variety of different benefits that we're offering. Right. If an organization has taken the time and the effort and the true goodwill to offer benefits, right, I think a logical next step is to create awareness around them for your employees, but also help them, show them, guide them, coach them on how to use them for their individual needs. Right. So the coaching and the literacy are important components of success in this field too.
Rodney:
I want to pull back on something and dig a little deeper into something you said about involving employee resource groups. Often we hear from some folks, especially people of color, that I shouldn't have to teach you what it means to be, fill in the blank. I shouldn't be your diversity guide. What is your response as to how companies can make sure that they're getting those important voices involved in the conversation, but not also when you were possibly in school, I remember when it came to Black History Month all,
Christyl:
[inaudible 00:14:33]. All eyes go to me.
Rodney:
All eyes go to meet. Yes, exactly.
Christyl:
I will say that sometimes actually being different is a position of power. And so no, we should not necessarily expect for an organization to come to us for all of the answers or come to, I'm going to use myself, come to myself as a black woman for all of the answers. But smart strategic organizations do look to understand their segments. Right. So if it's our employee segment or if it's our customer segment, those organizations that are most successful know everything about you. And so we do have access to people who've raised their hand, they want to get involved, they're part of these employee resource groups, and it is a great opportunity to listen and to hear. No, you don't have to be the one representative for the entire race. And we can't generalize because again, we go back to intersectionality, but I do feel like being asked is important. Being able to have some input is in fact powerful.
So I'll give you another example, right? Because you talk about, oh, I don't want to be the only person or have to be the representative for my entire race. I've oftentimes heard that perhaps we should not be paternalistic, or perhaps it's a little bit demeaning to say people need financial literacy, need and or want. However, let's go back to your home and to the conversations that you'd have around the table. If investing, saving and planning, and taking advantage of benefits, or even knowing you had a benefit, if those were not things that were spoken of at the table, then we shouldn't necessarily expect that an individual has it coming into an organization as first generation. Right.
And so I do think that we as firms offering these benefits do ourselves and our employees a disservice if we don't explain, teach, coach how to use them. Starting step one with financial literacy. And I think regardless of your level of education, there are gaps there for a variety of different groups. We can't generalize, but for BIPOC communities, many times we're seeing larger gaps. But being able to offer and guide and coach on how to really leverage and thrive at work, that's really powerful.
Rodney:
Christyl, you just took me back to my childhood experiences on finances, because when I think about debt, my parents said, they're advice to me on debt, don't get any. Investing, don't know what that is. Sounds risky. Saving for retirement, they had a pension. There was no such thing as putting money away for retirement. It's being done for you. So none of those principles I understood, knew about. So it was like going in the dark and hoping to find a flashlight somewhere. And you're right, financial literacy could definitely help because we all come from different backgrounds and may not have been exposed to certain things.
Christyl:
Even with education and even with higher education, you could still lack a knowledge of how to save, invest, and to leverage your benefits.
Rodney:
Absolutely. Christyl, I have a couple final questions. You've shared a lot of great information today, and our audience is probably saying, wow, okay, how can I get started on implementing, creating a better diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging strategy? What are some steps I can take? And especially when it comes to workplace financial benefits. So what are your key takeaways you want to share with the audience?
Christyl:
Key takeaways in terms of benefits and setting workplace financial benefits and positioning an organization for success. Right. These are our critical success factors. Are number one, take a look at your audience. Understand what employees in your firm, what they want, what they need. So really segment your employees. So that starts with an assessment. I think that's important, right? We're going to fill a gap, but we need to know what we're targeting.
Secondly, look at your processes for creating access to various benefits. Like the equity compensation is one that is always top of mind. Not everyone in the firm is necessarily able to achieve. So is there an ability for me as an organization to look at my rules for including people and or is there an opportunity within my firm if I'm saying you need to be at a certain level, what can I do to develop certain groups so they are positioned to grow into those roles where equity is delivered? Number three, ensure that you are quantifying, defining your success metrics so you can go back and really understand where you're moving the needle. And then finally, in closing, Rodney, I would say the belonging. That's a culture strategy. So it goes beyond check the box, seats at the table. It's this real notion of ensuring that everyone is on that inside group. We're in insiders. I feel like I own this place. Right. And I belong.
Rodney:
Final question, Christyl Lucille, what makes you invested at work?
Christyl:
I'm going to give you a real and a powerful example. I did grow up, I studied business in undergrad, and I went to the Wharton Business School. And when I thought about the financial services industry, it didn't necessarily really move me until I got here to Morgan Stanley at work and recognize the opportunity that we have to change people's lives really through workplace financial benefits. I was just attending an onsite for new hires at Morgan Stanley at work, and a call was played where one of our employees was reaching out to an individual who had equity that was perhaps about to expire. Right. They haven't leveraged it. And the actual recording of the call was played, Rodney, and it was so powerful because number one, the recipient of the call didn't even know that they had those benefits, number one. Number two, the benefits were about to expire.
Number three, it couldn't be planned in a movie, but the person had just gone through a hurricane and lost just about everything. Right. And so the ability to exercise was going to change this family's life, right, just through the benefits that they had. And so when I say what makes me invested at work, it's not only being in a position to offer those benefits, but really being in a position to help people change and enhance their lives. And so it doesn't come to the point where you didn't even know that you had them, right? We want to share that with you. We want to provide them to you, number one, but we want to teach and coach you on how to leverage and how to better position your family for future success.
It really moved me, and it touched me very personally because when I received equity compensation, I too didn't necessarily know what to do with it or how to use it or how to leverage or even that I had it. And so I had kind of an epiphany like that for myself, and I said, why are we just haphazardly waiting for that to happen? No, we're in a position to change people's lives. Then that's what makes me invested at work.
Rodney:
I have actually a follow-up. I said that was my last one. I have a follow-up. I have a follow-up.
Christyl:
My pleasure.
Rodney:
So looking at your resume, you've worked other places.
Christyl:
Yes.
Rodney:
When it came to whatever role you had, what was a key factor that got you out of bed and got you excited for going into work every day?
Christyl:
Changing and impacting people's lives, even in just pure talent development, having an opportunity to take someone, talk to them about their career, develop them, see them move into a different position, that moved me, that touched my heart. Or facilitating somebody getting a new role. I remember sending a little note to someone saying, welcome to the firm. This is awesome. I'm so glad you're here. And the note came back to me as, thank you. I'm so excited. I feel blessed to be here. I was like, wow. We really are in positions. I'm in a position to enhance people's lives in a variety of different ways, and that moves me, that makes me invested at work.
Rodney:
Christyl Lucille Murray, as always, it's been such a pleasure to have this discussion today. An important one that all companies need to think about and hopefully after this they're going to add the word belonging to DEI. So we're going to go from DEI to DEIB. Thank you for joining me.
Christyl:
Thank you, Rodney. Thank you for having me.
