Morgan Stanley
  • Thoughts on the Market Podcast
  • Apr 14, 2025

Where Is the Bottom of the Market?

With Mike Wilson
U.S. Equities Research for Investors

Transcript

Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Mike Wilson, Morgan Stanley’s CIO and Chief U.S.  Equity Strategist. Today on the podcast I’ll be discussing last week’s volatility and what to expect going forward.

It's Monday, April 14th at 11:30am in New York.

So, let’s get after it.

What a month for equity markets, and it's only halfway done! Entering April, we were much  more focused on growth risks than inflation risks given the headwinds from AI Capex growth  deceleration, fiscal slowing, DOGE and immigration enforcement. Tariffs were the final  headwind to face, and while most investors' confidence was low about how Liberation Day  would play out, positioning skewed more toward potential relief than disappointment.

That combination proved to be problematic when the details of the reciprocal tariffs were  announced on April 2nd. From that afternoon's highs, S&P 500 futures plunged by 16.5 per cent into Monday morning. Remarkably, no circuit breakers were triggered, and markets functioned very well during this extreme stress. However, we did observe some forced selling as Treasuries, gold and defensive stocks were all down last Monday. 

In my view, Monday was a classic capitulation day on heavy volume. In fact, I would go as far  as to say that Monday will likely prove to be the momentum low for this correction that began back in December for most stocks; and as far back as a year ago for many cyclicals. This also means that we likely retest or break last week's price lows for the major indices even if some individual stocks have bottomed. We suspect a more durable low will come as early as next month or over the summer as earnings are adjusted lower, and multiples remain volatile with a downward bias given the Fed's apprehension to cut rates – or provide additional liquidity unless credit or funding markets become unstable. 

As discussed last week, markets are now contemplating a much higher risk of recession than  normal – with tariffs acting as another blow to an economy that was already weakening from the numerous headwinds; not to mention the fact that most of the private economy has been  struggling for the better part of two years. In my view, there have been three factors supporting headline GDP growth and labor markets: government spending, consumer services and AI Capex – and all three are now slowing.

The tricky thing here is that the tariff impact is a moving target. The question is whether the  damage to confidence can recover. As already noted, markets moved ahead of the  fundamentals; and markets have once again done a better job than the consensus in predicting the slowdown that is now appearing in the data.  

While everyone can see the deterioration in the S&P 500 and other popular indices, the  internals of the equity market have been even clearer. First, small caps versus large caps have  been in a distinct downtrend for the past four years. This is the quality trade in a nutshell which  has worked so well for reasons we have been citing for years — things like the k-economy and crowding out by government spending that has kept the headline economic statistics higher than they would have been otherwise. This strength has encouraged the Fed to maintain interest rates higher than the weaker cohorts of the economy need to recover.  

Therefore, until interest rates come down, this bifurcated economy and equity markets are likely to persist. This also explains why we had a brief, yet powerful rally last fall in low quality  cyclicals when the Fed was cutting rates, and why it quickly failed when the Fed paused in  December. The dramatic correction in cyclical stocks and small caps is well advanced not only in  price, but also in time. While many have only recently become concerned about the growth  slowdown, the market began pricing it a year ago.

Looking at the drawdown of stocks more broadly also paints a picture that suggests the market  correction is well advanced, but probably not complete if we end up in a recession or the fear  of one gets more fully priced. This remains the key question for stock investors, in my view, and  why the S&P 500 is likely to remain in a range of 5000-5500 and volatile – until we have a more  definitive answer to this specific question around recession, or the Fed decides to circumvent the growth risks  more aggressively, like last fall.

With the Fed saying it is constrained by inflation risks, it appears likely to err on the side of remaining on hold despite elevated recession risk. It's a similar performance story at the sector and industry level, with many cohorts experiencing a drawdown equal to 2022. Bottom line, we've experienced a lot of price damage, but it's too early to conclude that the durable lows are in – with policy uncertainty persisting, earnings revisions in a downtrend, the Fed on hold and back-end rates elevated. While it’s too late to sell many individual stocks at this point, focus on adding risk over the next month or two as markets likely re-test last week’s lows.  

Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the podcast, leave us a review wherever you listen and share  Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

 

Our CIO and Chief U.S. Equity Strategist Mike Wilson probes whether market confidence can return soon as long as tariff policy remains in a state of flux.